D16031: [SDDM theme] remove blur and increase UI contrast so it's not required

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham created this revision.
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REVISION SUMMARY
This patch adjusts the Breeze SDDM theme to remove the semi-permanently-blurred background, which has not been especially popular.

In its place, it improves the contrast and readability of the UI elements that reviously required the blur in order to be visible enough with all backgrounds.

BUG: 398115
FIXED-IN; 5.15.0
Closes T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658>

TEST PLAN
[images go here]

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43086.
ngraham added a comment.


Remove old unneeded change

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43087.
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Collapse changes from prior two patches into this one; no need to separate them like that

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43089.
ngraham added a dependency: D15999: Add icons with added background to system.svgz.
ngraham added a comment.


- Adjust shadows
- Add a translucent circle background behind user avatar

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43092.
ngraham added a comment.


Use new icon for the back button too

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


TBD: blur the dark circles behind the icons. I'm still working on this but no longer convinced that it's a necessity for this new design. I think the screenshots look pretty darn good as-is. I'm still giving it shot but I don't consider it a hard requirement before this can land.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


i'm sorry but there is not a single screenshot in which either the shaded icons or the contrast/shadowing looks good; in fact, the shadows make a bad situation worse - the only way to make any of these look presentable (aside from the dark blue background, that one does look good but only because it obscures the icons and the shadows) is to put the blur back in

i don't think it's possible to have really bright/white letters atop a bright background and have the shadows take care of the stark differences in contrast, the blur actually took care of that problem

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


^ I wouldn't be that harsh; I think this is a step in the right direction. From a functionality point of view it seems alright, but from a design point of view I have some suggestions, if it's alright to list them:

1. no need to add an additional border to the user icon; keep the new background contained within the existing border
2. no need to add an extra border to the circles, no matter how faint it is
3. it may be aesthetically preferable to not spread out the icons so much inside the circle, they could be scaled down a bit
4. I think adding blur behind the circles would a be a nice touch
5. I'd potentially lower the strength of text shadows (both for action items and date&time)
6. this is just a light color scheme variant, should someone wish to use white circles with dark icon elements, it might be neat have the option to do so (this is more relevant in the case of logout and lock screens adjusting to color schemes)
7. this and the problem of white text on light backgroudns raises the question of implementing an option which would parse a kdeglobals file to /usr/var/lib/sddm/config with Breeze Dark set as the color scheme or of creating a Breeze Dark SDDM theme, but SDDM is highly uncustomizable right now
8. I still believe the Breeze desktop icons themselves are too thin and would benefit from even a slight increase in thickness

Whatever is applicable also pertains to the logout and lock screens.

I'll try to make a mock-up implementing the things I suggested when I catch some time.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

1. I still believe the Breeze desktop icons themselves are too thin and would benefit from even a slight increase in thickness

These three issues, meaning: bright on dark, no config/customization and thin icons still need to be addressed, yes.
There might not even be a need for contrast or blur if the icons were made thicker (much like the Adapta icons).

The lettering in particular looks kind of homely with the Classic Plasma Blue Background.

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


It's a bit frustrating to spend a lot of time in the phab task (T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658>) getting consensus on a design, implement it, and then hear, "no, no, major elements of this design needs to be rethought." I understand that sometimes implementation reveals issues that were unforeseen during the original discussion, but let's keep the discussion in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> or else it will be very hard to follow scattered in two places.

@rooty and @filipf, can you re-post your comments in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> and delete them here?

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[Rik Mills]

rikmills added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
It's a bit frustrating to spend a lot of time in the phab task (T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658>) getting consensus on a design, implement it, and then hear, "no, no, major elements of this design needs to be rethought." I understand that sometimes implementation reveals issues that were unforeseen during the original discussion, but let's keep the discussion in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> or else it will be very hard to follow scattered in two places.

To be fair, the new screenshots showing how this adversely affects appearance with a range of backgrounds which are not darkish default Plasma wallpapers are only shown in this review, so naturally I think people would comment here. Not saying that is right, but it would help if the new examples are mirrored there for comment.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
It's a bit frustrating to spend a lot of time in the phab task (T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658>) getting consensus on a design, implement it, and then hear, "no, no, major elements of this design needs to be rethought." I understand that sometimes implementation reveals issues that were unforeseen during the original discussion, but let's keep the discussion in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> or else it will be very hard to follow scattered in two places.
@rooty and @filipf, can you re-post your comments in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> and delete them here?

sure i'll repost

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[Kai Uwe Broulik]

broulik added a comment.


Can't we just give the buttons and avatar the same dropshadow as the clock? Imho the sharp edges of the circles behind look out of place compared to the "soft" shadows

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Kai Uwe Broulik
Can't we just give the buttons and avatar the same dropshadow as the clock? Imho the sharp edges of the circles behind look out of place compared to the "soft" shadows

yeah they look 2D vs everything else looking 3D

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[Phil Stefan]

pstefan added a comment.


As other have pointed out the shadows for the buttons and username look out of place. Do they use the same radius/spread as those of the clock?

I think blur is still needed. If you look at the picture of the snow-y landscape the contrast suffers quite a bit because of the noisy background. In my mock-up test the smoothing of the blur helped quite in such cases.

INLINE COMMENTS

UserDelegate.qml:54
+
+ width: imageSource.width + 10
+ height: width

I am not sure the 10px(?) padding are needed. The white circle is already a border around the image i.e. it's always shown, no matter the icon used. So this background circle is akin to drawing a dark rectangle behind the input field and button.

UserDelegate.qml:58
+
+ color: "black"
+ opacity: 0.5

If we hardcode this color we should use the same color as in the icons or vice versa. I used #232627 50% opacity.

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


I see what folks mean about the background circle for the avatar being too big. I'll reduce it, but IMHO it the "border" needs to be there, even if it's small. Compare the following images on a background that really highlights the need:

No border: F6313303: Without border.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6313303>

2px border: F6313305: With border.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6313305>

To my eyes there is no question, the second one looks better.

I can also tweak the shadows Here's how it would look with the above change plus the button and username shadows tweaked to better match the clock's shadows: F6313297: Screenshot_20181008_193916.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6313297>

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[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


Is this patch also tweaking the shadows for the text or is it just concerned with the background for the icons?

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[Kai Uwe Broulik]

broulik added a comment.


Again: Can we just use shadows behind the logout buttons and avatar like we have for the clock?

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Phil Stefan
As other have pointed out the shadows for the buttons and username look out of place. Do they use the same radius/spread as those of the clock?
I think blur is still needed. If you look at the picture of the snow-y landscape the contrast suffers quite a bit because of the noisy background. In my mock-up test the smoothing of the blur helped quite in such cases.
No border: F6313303: Without border.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6313303>
2px border: F6313305: With border.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6313305>
To my eyes there is no question, the second one looks better.
I can also tweak the shadows Here's how it would look with the above change plus the button and username shadows tweaked to better match the clock's shadows: F6313297: Screenshot_20181008_193916.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6313297>

circle border around avatar = it looks great in the last image, flush with the avatar
shadows = can you make them more diffuse please and post it again? thanks

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.

Post by Kai Uwe Broulik
Again: Can we just use shadows behind the logout buttons and avatar like we have for the clock?

We can't do only a shadow for the avatar since it gives a shadow to the outline of the icon and not the shader effect, which looks bad. If we add a shadow behind the avatar (which I would be open to), the circle background I've added is mandatory.

For the buttons, it's a bit better, but I don't think //just// shadows behind the current icons will be enough:
F6315209: Drop shadows behind original icons, default background.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6315209>
F6315210: Drop shadows behind original icons, challenging background.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6315210>

Shadows behind the new circle-background icons do work pretty well though, and improve the contrast to good levels.:
F6315212: Drop shadows behind round icons, default background.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6315212>
F6315214: Drop shadows behind round icons, challenging background.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6315214>

Maybe that reveals that the icons' translucent background should be less translucent, or even opaque, and then we wouldn't need a shadow for them.

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


The new shadows around the action button text look better and the border around the avatar seems perfectly fine actually.

I do, however, think that the shadows are too strong all together. The clock is actually a bigger concern. Have a look at the inside of the number "4" where the shadows overlap. Or inside the number "8"... it's very bad aesthetically.

Why are we using the outer shadow effect on the clock and not the drop shadow effect? The text is big and thick enough to allow the use of a drop shadow, which looks much more classy:

F6315226: With_border_2.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6315226>

Unfortunately the other text has to use outer shadow because the drop shadow effect is not enough (I tried).

In the mock-up I've also: 1) removed the circle's border; 2) scaled down the icons within the circle; 3) added blur behind the circle (can't really see it here unfortunately)

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


I really like the darker background for the icons, and have suggested that for D15999: Add icons with added background to system.svgz <https://phabricator.kde.org/D15999>. If we do that, we won't need either blur or shadows behind them, and the shadows can just be for text.

I have no opinion regarding smaller icons within the background circle, but that would be a suggestion for D15999 <https://phabricator.kde.org/D15999>, not this patch.

Regarding the clock shadow, the one in your mockup @filipf is so tight that I wonder if simply outlining the text might look better. I can reduce the size of sha current shadow and see what it looks like, and try out an outline too.

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


@ngraham well actually if we are turning off blur maybe it will somehow be possible to put a plain white background in SDDM again. Right now SDDM will darken it for you. If it won't do that anymore, this means that a drop shadow would probably not be enough; whoever implemented the current solution (for the lock screen as well) must have had this scenario on their mind. And truth be told light backgrounds do accentuate the shadows. But if you do agree that the clock shadows could be improved, it would be cool to see some other design variants yeah.

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


One more thing I noticed about functionality and that is related to the opacity of the circles.

Since we now have circles, we can add a different opacity for when an action button is hovered over and when it's not. Here's a too strong of an example of different opacities, this time from actual fiddling with SDDM theming:

F6316007: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316007>

It's fairly easy to implement. In **ActionButton.qml **you place something like

opacity: ( containsMouse || activeFocus ) ? 1 : 0.85

under the line

activeFocusOnTab: true

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham marked an inline comment as done.
ngraham added a comment.

Post by Filip Fila
One more thing I noticed about functionality and that is related to the opacity of the circles.
F6316007: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316007>
It's fairly easy to implement. In **ActionButton.qml **you place something like
opacity: ( containsMouse || activeFocus ) ? 1 : 0.85
under the line
activeFocusOnTab: true

There's already a fairly nice hover effect built in with these new icons so this actually isn't even needed.

I tried using outlines instead of shadows, and it's not bad for the clock, but it doesn't work //at all// for the smaller username and button text. So I think that's a no-go. I'll have a new version up shortly.

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43257.
ngraham added a comment.


- Tighten up outline around user avatar
- Tweak shadows

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


Here are some screenshots from the latest version:

F6316263: Spaceships.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316263>

F6316264: Snow.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316264>

F6316265: New Mexico.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316265>

F6316266: Icebergs.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316266>

F6316267: Stars.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316267>

I think the button backgrounds could stand to be darkened a little bit more, but that's a discussion for D15999 <https://phabricator.kde.org/D15999>.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
F6316263: Spaceships.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316263>
F6316264: Snow.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316264>
F6316265: New Mexico.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316265>
F6316266: Icebergs.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316266>
F6316267: Stars.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6316267>
I think the button backgrounds could stand to be darkened a little bit more, but that's a discussion for D15999 <https://phabricator.kde.org/D15999>.

a definite improvement imo

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43260.
ngraham added a comment.


Rebase

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 43367.
ngraham added a comment.


- Reduce shadow darkness
- Add subtle outlines
- Increase text size a bit

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


I've updated the shadows and text according to #VDG <https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/vdg/> feedback from this morning and I'm feeling pretty good about the current state. Will try to work on blurry backgrounds for the icons now.

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[Chris Rizzitello]

rizzitello accepted this revision as: rizzitello.
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This revision is now accepted and ready to land.


This Looks Great!

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


Thanks! I'm working on the blur now. You also brought up in the #VDG <https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/vdg/> chat that the Virtual Keyboard, session chooser, and battery indicator icons need some better contrast too. Will also work on that.

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


As far as I can tell, the blur won't work barring code changes to `plasma-framework` due to https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399686

Continuing on for now with something else.

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[David Edmundson]

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Why should the login screen look different to the lock screen?

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[Chris Rizzitello]

rizzitello added a comment.

Post by David Edmundson
Why should the login screen look different to the lock screen?

This is a response to user complaints about the login screen receiving the same blur used on the lock screen when the controls are shown. Since the controls are always shown on the login screen you get a blurry background on the login screen. Now if you are saying this looks good and we should now think about using it in place of the blur on the lock screen. I Think we could do that now since the main reason to use blur in the first place was to controls more visible.

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[Nathaniel Graham]

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Post by David Edmundson
Why should the login screen look different to the lock screen?

It already does. This patch arguably makes it less different in some ways. But as @rizzitello says, we've gotten a lot of user complaints about how the login screen permanently obscures the background image; it was prettier before. This patch is an attempt to solve in a different way the problem that drove the adoption of the blurry overlay, so that we can have both adequate readability and also an attractive background image.

I think the lock screen can stay the way it is because 1. people seem to like it and 2. with the current design, you can basically have a ~~screensaver~~ attractive animated lock screen background, which is popular and fun.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by David Edmundson
Why should the login screen look different to the lock screen?

why not?

the lock screen (like nate said) is fine the way it is and the login screen had the problem of obscuring the login/password input dialog (which you need closer at hand than on the lock screen) + obscuring the background image (the lock screen doesn't really do that considering that most of the time the lock screen actually stays unblurred until you decide to unlock it)

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[David Edmundson]

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Post by Root
why not?

Because it makes for a inconsistent random experience

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[Roman Gilg]

romangg added a comment.


The shadows look now better than in the first revision. Still I find the original version with full blur and darkened background way better to read for many background pictures. I don't think it's wort it to sacrifice this usability factor to allow a better view of the background.

Instead would it be possible to have a similar timeout for hiding the controls and unblurring as for the lockscreen (with visible controls and blur in the beginning)?

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by David Edmundson

Post by Root
why not?

Because it makes for a inconsistent random experience

perhaps, but a far more intuitive experience

unless you're about to add a Slide to unlock message to both screens (because without it, once the dialogs are lost, the user doesn't know that they can, in fact, log in) and tone down the blur without removing it

Post by David Edmundson

Post by Root
why not?

Because it makes for a inconsistent random experience

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by David Edmundson

Post by Root
why not?

Because it makes for a inconsistent random experience

p.s. :D i never wanted to do away with the blur in the first place, i think it's kinda cool, but it does kind of cloud out the wallpaper, i'm *all for* just diminishing the blur effect, and not doing away with it altogether

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


[Just as a reminder: this is only for the login screen; the lock screen is not being touched]

I wish the conceptual concerns had been brought up in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> before I started implementing the design changes we agreed to there. It has been open for a month and I tagged #plasma <https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/plasma/> and #vdg <https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/vdg/>. If there is a better way to get people's attention, I'd like to know it.

Anyway, it's important that we remove the blur for aesthetic reasons. The blurry login screen background is the very first thing a new user sees, as well as what every existing user sees when they turn on their machine (regular people tend to turn their computers off when they're done with them, unlike us weirdos). We go our of our way to put the beautiful Plasma wallpaper there--only to ruin the effect by turning it into a dark blurry soup. User feedback has not been very positive, in contrast to the lock screen, which people love.

We also need to preserve readability, of course, as that was the major driver for implementing the blur. This patch aims to do it without blur. I'm open to suggestions, but the blur has got to go.

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 44876.
ngraham marked an inline comment as done.
ngraham added a comment.


- Improve contrast for bottom buttons
- Correct color names

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[Roman Gilg]

romangg added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
[Just as a reminder: this is only for the login screen; the lock screen is not being touched]
I wish the conceptual concerns had been brought up in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658> before I started implementing the design changes we agreed to there. It has been open for a month and I tagged #plasma <https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/plasma/> and #vdg <https://phabricator.kde.org/tag/vdg/>. If there is a better way to get people's attention, I'd like to know it.

Without an example it was difficult to assess the visuals. This diff provides example pictures and it's difficult to read text and symbols on many of them.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
Anyway, it's important that we remove the blur for aesthetic reasons. The blurry login screen background is the very first thing a new user sees, as well as what every existing user sees when they turn on their machine (regular people tend to turn their computers off when they're done with them, unlike us weirdos). We go our of our way to put the beautiful Plasma wallpaper there--only to ruin the effect by turning it into a dark blurry soup. User feedback has not been very positive, in contrast to the lock screen, which people love.

More important than aesthetics is usability. The ui elements are often difficult to see even with the shadows. Also imo it doesn't look aesthetically pleasing if the ui elements are not distinct to the background.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
We also need to preserve readability, of course, as that was the major driver for implementing the blur. This patch aims to do it without blur. I'm open to suggestions, but the blur has got to go.

As said maybe we can have a similar timeout as on the lock screen. And directly after reboot we either hide controls or only show the user pic of the last logged in user plus the password field and on first input do blur + show other controls. Not sure what would work out in the end. But imo this solution proposal should go back into concept phase. Last word has VDG though. Is there consensus by VDG that this here is the solution to go with?

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


Yeah, I understand that it can be hard to visualize changes like these before there are pictures. Thing is, we're in a tough spot, because the current design turns the wallpaper into a soupy mess and generates user complaints. I agree that we shouldn't regress usability, but aesthetics are very important too. What's being proposed here is nothing more than a superior version of what we shipped from Plasma 5.8 - 5.12 (which is what I wanted all along during the 5.13 design changes but didn't get because we ran out of time before we had to ship something due to our very short release cycles).

Conceptually, when you have a contrast problem because the background is variable and the foreground isn't, you can put a window, frame, or artificial background under the foreground, or you can give the foreground an outline or a shadow. The early Plasma 5 login screen put a dark translucent rectangle underneath the foreground elements, which worked just fine <Loading Image...>. I think this was actually a great design, because it ensured good contrast for the UI elements and labels, but allowed you to actually see most of the background wallpaper. Fast forward, and the 5.13 and later login screen does something similar by darkening and blurring the whole wallpaper, but it's a big visual regression because it obscures the entire background and makes it look like a swamp; there's practically no point in setting a wallpaper at all for the login screen since you don't see it in real-world workflows (i.e. the 50-second timeout doesn't count). If we reduce the darkness and strength of the blur to try to improve its aesthetics, we worsen the contrast that it generates. In other words, with the current design, we have no freedom of movement: if we improve one thing, it worsens another. Also, we don't actually resolve the user complaints by simple reducing the blur; people want to be able to see the wallpaper.

I think that in terms of visuals and usability, the pre-5.8 theme was just fine and there was no reason to replace it, but I wasn't around back then, so I don't know what concerns were in play at the time. Either way, that ship has sailed and we need to address the legitimate aesthetic concerns with the current login screen. This patch is an attempt to do that without regressing contrast too much (though I admit that some is inevitable), but it's still a linked system where improving one worsens the other. If we're not willing to accept this trade-off, I think we need to seriously consider bringing back a frame or window of some sort that we can put under the foreground, like the pre-5.8 style had. I'm very open to this option--in fact, it's my preferred solution--but the last time I brought it up, people didn't like that idea on the grounds that it was "dated" and "not very modern" (etc). Maybe we should re-open that discussion.

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


But it seems to me like Nate's addressed or is addressing all the pitfalls regarding usability. The icons will have more contrast in a newer revision and from what I've seen in that diff there's an idea of adding a rectangle at the bottom to make the text there nicely legible. All the other textual elements seem just fine in my opinion.

Aesthetically perhaps it would be preferable to avoid the outlines around text, but if it helps legibility it's fine. Otherwise I don't think there is aesthetic degradation here - and if there is, not blurring the wallpaper will compensate for it. And the new revision of the icons in particular looks very classy.

The consistency argument actually seems like a stronger one here, but I don't see why the lock and login screens should necessarily be identical in design. You could use the circular icons in the logout and lock screen to help with this. The greatest consistency issue is more likely to be the SDDM theme disrespecting user customization, which is a different topic altogether.

My opinion doesn't hold much weight, but it seems to me that: there was plenty of time to discuss the idea in the respective task, that the current project is at the finish line and that the potential objections do not seem grave enough to warrant going back to the drawing board, especially if there is no defined proposal as an alternative.

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[David Edmundson]

davidedmundson requested changes to this revision.
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This revision now requires changes to proceed.


Why are there hardcoded colours? If the font is black then surely the outline needs to be white?

There's two parts to this patch:

- Improving readability on any background, blurred or not, on login/lock/logout.

- Changing the login visually

The first part is non-controversial. They're iterative design changes. If you split it, I'll happily ship the 1st part (with hardcoded colours fixed)

INLINE COMMENTS

Main.qml:322
+ }
+ height: units.gridUnit * 2
+

This is now choosing an arbitrary size and hoping the contents happen to be smaller.

Generally (if possible) you want views to fit contents, not squish contents to view.

i.e

height: theInnerLayout.implicitHeight

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


OK, will do!

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


hey i just set up these revisions and i'm liking the new theme
one problem though, it seems as though Suspend, Restart, Shutdown are showing up as 12pt instead of 11pt or 10pt? it just looks a little too big compared to (when i force) 11pt

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.

Post by Root
hey i just set up these revisions and i'm liking the new theme
one problem though, it seems as though Suspend, Restart, Shutdown are showing up as 12pt instead of 11pt or 10pt? it just looks a little too big compared to (when i force) 11pt

Yeah I also tested the latest revision (tried it out with my default font too) and have some concerns regarding the font sizes.

To expand a bit more on what you noticed:

a) technical aspect - the login and password dialogs actually seem to be showing up as 12pt, not 11pt for me as well. Even on my FHD laptop where I use 11pt fonts to scale the screen, this looks too big.

b) visual aspect - the login and password dialogs are still at 10pt and are now *sandwiched* between two 11pt(12pt?) texual elements (usernames and action button text). The "sandwiching" can make it noticeable that there is a discrepancy in font sizes, which in turn may not feel quite right aesthetically.

c) conceptual aspect - thinking conceptually, are the action buttons more important than the login and password box? Users probably mainly use the login screen to type in their password, but the action buttons kind of stick out more.

If I'm seeing it right and if you agree with me of course, this is what I see as potential solutions:

1. keep everything at 10pt -> you remain true to the desktop default
2. only have the usernames at 11pt -> you, in a way, avoid the visual discrepancy by not interrupting the vertical gradient of fontsizes whereby the fontsizes are decreased going from top to bottom
3. switch all these central text elements to 11 pt (but not 12pt) -> hmm even at 11pt this may look too big for people with PCs, normal monitors and vision, but unfortunately I can't test this for quite some time :/

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


hey nate would you consider changing all the #232629 outlines to #4d4d4d? they come out a little strong when set to #232629 imo

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


I'm separating out all the potentially controversial changes into a separate patch (and will probably revert the font size changes; you guys are right about that). I might not have time until later tonight or sometime tomorrow evening since I'm single-parenting for a few days and my kids are both sick at the moment. Stay tuned.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


thanks! and good luck! sorry about the little ones hope they get well soon

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


sorry to be a bore, but how do you guys feel about removing the outline and tinkering with DropShadow instead? i set it to:

radius: 12
samples: 32
spread: 0.35
color: Qt.rgba(0, 0, 0, 1)

and this is what happens on top of a very messy bright background
F6412146: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6412146>
not there yet but worth considering? is it too weak? also, i didn't modify the clock (not sure if it really benefits from greater "spread")

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


@davidedmundson I've put only the fairly non-controversial changes into D16879 <https://phabricator.kde.org/D16879>.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


People have been complaining about the blur, but is it necessary to do away with it, or is it a better idea to run with it like they do in Windows Fluent Design (Deepin too actually)?
F6431816: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6431816>

This theme, for example, has different blur that might work (It makes you think you need glasses though).
It's a Breeze-Chili hybrid that incorporates the proposed font changes in ActionButton.qml and UserDelegate.qml. I'm just not sure about the shadows behind the clock (spread: 0.1) but they look great full screen. It also uses Chili's password box (even though I do like the Breeze one, not really sure about that). I haven't yet incorporated the latest system.svgz icons here though, because they look sort of out of place on top of a blurry background.
F6431828: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6431828>

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


Thing is, if we're going to reduce the blur that much, why not just show the original image?

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[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.

Post by Root
People have been complaining about the blur, but is it necessary to do away with it, or is it a better idea to run with it like they do in Windows Fluent Design (Deepin too actually)?
F6431816: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6431816>
This theme, for example, has different blur that might work (It makes you think you need glasses though).
It's a Breeze-Chili hybrid that incorporates the proposed font changes into ActionButton.qml and UserDelegate.qml. I'm just not sure about the shadows behind the clock (spread: 0.1) but they look great full screen. It also uses Chili's password box (even though I do like the Breeze one, not really sure about that). I haven't yet incorporated the latest system.svgz icons here though, because they look sort of out of place on top of a blurry background.
F6431828: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6431828>

These are fairly appealing blur settings, but yeah, if we're still leaving blur on the table, it should be proper blurring. I liked the one in Deepin for what it's worth:

F6432729: DeepinScreenshot_20181119102306.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6432729>

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
Thing is, if we're going to reduce the blur that much, why not just show the original image?

That's a fair point.
Another fair point: Why not just pick an image that doesn't really interfere with the boxes and icons that much then you don't need blur at all.

That being said, I personally prefer blur - it's just a matter of taste. The added bonus with the blur is the "effect" or "animation" (more like, the time needed for it to show up and disappear later on). Not to belabor the point (too much) but I've also been using ImageSplash (a splash screen that uses an image instead of an actual splash screen) to bridge the gap between the login screen and the desktop, and you get a very smooth transition from login to desktop with both blur and non-blur when it disappears (and my graphics drivers decide //not to glitch//), check it out you might like it:

F6432738: phone-recording.mp4 <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6432738>

Might be something worth investigating,

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.

Post by Root
Another fair point: Why not just pick an image that doesn't really interfere with the boxes and icons that much then you don't need blur at all.

Because within reason, it's the system's job to accommodate the user, not the reverse.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham

Post by Root
Another fair point: Why not just pick an image that doesn't really interfere with the boxes and icons that much then you don't need blur at all.

Because within reason, it's the system's job to accommodate the user, not the reverse.

No, I mean, I did phrase it in the 2nd person but I was talking about KDE picking a wallpaper that's appropriate to the login environment. One of the things that blur does really well is make it idiotproof so wallpaper selection isn't as much of an issue (however it does sort of butcher the wallpaper).

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 46475.
ngraham added a comment.


Remove changes that were made in D16879 <https://phabricator.kde.org/D16879>

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 46477.
ngraham added a comment.


Rebase on master and fix merge conflicts

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 46518.
ngraham added a comment.


Don't hardcode colors

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 46519.
ngraham added a comment.


Calculate footer background bar height correctly

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 46522.
ngraham added a comment.


- Use consistent shadows for `ActionButton` labels
- Don't unnecessarily increase `ActionButton` label size
- Don't unnecessarily add outlines around `ActionButton` labels (left over from earlier experiment)

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 46523.
ngraham added a comment.


Remove now-unnecessary import

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[Richard Addison]

raddison added a comment.

Post by Roman Gilg
Still I find the original version with full blur and darkened background way better to read for many background pictures. I don't think it's wort it to sacrifice this usability factor to allow a better view of the background.

I think the same. Sacrificing the blur would result in dullness without any significant benefit.

Post by Roman Gilg
Instead would it be possible to have a similar timeout for hiding the controls and unblurring as for the lockscreen (with visible controls and blur in the beginning)?

Yep, that that would be great because it would result in a cohesive visual experience.

@romangg +1

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.

Post by Richard Addison

Post by Roman Gilg
Still I find the original version with full blur and darkened background way better to read for many background pictures. I don't think it's wort it to sacrifice this usability factor to allow a better view of the background.

I think the same. Sacrificing the blur would result in dullness without any significant benefit.

Post by Roman Gilg
Instead would it be possible to have a similar timeout for hiding the controls and unblurring as for the lockscreen (with visible controls and blur in the beginning)?

Yep, that would be great because it would result in a cohesive visual experience.
@romangg +1

I addressed all of that already: https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031#354282

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[Richard Addison]

raddison added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham

Post by Richard Addison

Post by Roman Gilg
Still I find the original version with full blur and darkened background way better to read for many background pictures. I don't think it's wort it to sacrifice this usability factor to allow a better view of the background.

I think the same. Sacrificing the blur would result in dullness without any significant benefit.

Post by Roman Gilg
Instead would it be possible to have a similar timeout for hiding the controls and unblurring as for the lockscreen (with visible controls and blur in the beginning)?

Yep, that would be great because it would result in a cohesive visual experience.
@romangg +1

I addressed all of that already: https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031#354282

@ngraham Is it going to look something like that? Loading Image...

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.

Post by Richard Addison
@ngraham Is it going to look something like that? https://phabricator.kde.org/file/data/zaerjwktbynwubnvu3ja/PHID-FILE-y52h6nwujyugxuqkc73z/maxresdefault.jpg

No, screenshots for the current proposal are in the Test Plan section of this patch. The image you're referring to was the old Plasma 5 design that was replaced in Plasma 5.8. I would support going back to that style of design because it solves virtually all of the problems here. But so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for that. The

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[Richard Addison]

raddison added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham

Post by Richard Addison
@ngraham Is it going to look something like that? https://phabricator.kde.org/file/data/zaerjwktbynwubnvu3ja/PHID-FILE-y52h6nwujyugxuqkc73z/maxresdefault.jpg

No, screenshots for the current proposal are in the Test Plan section of this patch. The image you're referring to was the old Plasma 5 design that was replaced in Plasma 5.8. I would support going back to that style of design because it solves virtually all of the problems here. But so far there doesn't seem to be a lot of enthusiasm for that. The

Truth to tell neither am I enthused about the old Plasma 5 design.
I've also looked at the test plan and it's not exactly a stroke of genius if it looks like Loading Image...

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.

Post by Richard Addison
I've also looked at the test plan and it's not exactly a stroke of genius if it looks like https://phabricator.kde.org/file/data/w3iyc7eov3ys6kmhrwi7/PHID-FILE-nya3nyqpjbmnijijvlwm/Screenshot_20181129_233236.png

You have two options:

- Stop insulting people and their work
- Go away

Coming up with realistic solutions to difficult and controversial issues is hard. We have gone over a bunch of different designs and all of them have strengths and weaknesses. You are welcome to propose alternatives in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658>, but please do it with respect. Thanks.

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[Richard Addison]

raddison added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham

Post by Richard Addison
I've also looked at the test plan and it's not exactly a stroke of genius if it looks like https://phabricator.kde.org/file/data/w3iyc7eov3ys6kmhrwi7/PHID-FILE-nya3nyqpjbmnijijvlwm/Screenshot_20181129_233236.png

- Stop insulting people and their work
- Go away
Coming up with realistic solutions to difficult and controversial issues is hard. We have gone over a bunch of different designs and all of them have strengths and weaknesses. You are welcome to propose alternatives in T9658 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T9658>, but please do it with respect. Thanks.

@ngraham With all due respect I have not insulted anyone or anything. I have expressed my point of view with regard to a **thing** and not **a person**. Why is it needed to fix something that is already the best possible solution? You have also stated that the desktop has to adapt to the user and not the other way around. Very generous concept but unrealistic. As things stand right now, the login in Plasma is at least on par if not better than what Windows, Deepin or Android have. **Blur + a tint of dark make the controls perfectly visible, even if the background is very bright or white.** The same holds true for both the lock screen and the login screen. You have also stated that people are complaining about the login/lock screens without quantifying their complaints in any way whatsoever (e.g. satisfaction/dissatisfaction ratio?). Which is a methodological flaw. Your argument boils down to "I want to see the wallpaper". Fine.

Whether we are talking about the login screen or the lock screen, things are similar.

You only see the blurred + slightly tinted login or lock screen for a very brief span of time (when you log-in). At all other times you can see the wallpaper or the wallpaper with a date and time. If auto login is enabled you will boot into the login screen but after a brief span of time (set by default or the user) the login screen will time-out into a wallpaper with a date and time. At that moment, if you move the mouse, the login screen will show up but as soon as you stop interacting, the login screen will time-out again. I'm uploading some screenshots in defense of what I think to be a masterpiece of Plasma that shouldn't be tempered with then I'll rest my case. I should have used Neon but Solus Plasma will do just fine.
F6453369: Screenshot_20181203_205943.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6453369>

F6453371: Screenshot_20181203_191226.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6453371>

F6453373: Screenshot_20181203_201310.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6453373>

F6453378: Screenshot_20181203_205228.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6453378>

Kind regards, my friend. I have nothing but positive feelings towards you and your hard work is worthy of our admiration. I'm blunt, yes, but no insult whatsoever had been intended.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
- Stop insulting people and their work
- Go away

naaate you're taking all of this way too personally
first of all,, @raddison's got a valid point, these changes to remove the blur introduce a lot of new problems (the blur made sure that the text on the screen was always legible regardless of the wallpaper chosen (and how much it got butchered))

he also touched on a very interesting argument you seem to invoke as justification for these changes, i.e. //people have complained//. i can't help but wonder if the idea to remove the blur came from somewhere else instead:

F6453429: image.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6453429>

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


@raddison You described my work as "not exactly a stroke of genius." That's not being "blunt", it's an insult. We have had this conversation before. I will be forwarding this and earlier exchanges to the KDE Community Working Group.

@rooty If you are implying that I want to remove the blur from the Plasma login screen because apparently Apple did it in macOS 10.14, you would be wrong. I didn't even know they did that until you brought it up right now.

I want to remove the blur from the login screen because it obscures the wallpaper and I think looks ugly (too dark, too blurry). The current design was not something we agonized over and polished forever; it was the best we could do to land a good design that was 95% done in the 5.13 timeframe before we would have otherwise missed the release.

As I have mentioned a couple of times, I am open to discussing alternative designs that make the wallpaper mostly visible like this patch does, while offering improved background contrast for the text and controls. I have offered up the Plasma 5.7 and earlier login screen design as one such example that I think worked well to accomplish both of those goals by using a dark background/frame underneath the UI controls. The current darkened blur solution basically does the same thing, but regresses the visuals by unnecessarily extending it to the entire screen--most of which has no UI controls on it, so it's not needed. There's no point in even having a wallpaper on the login screen if it's not going to be visible with the current darkened blur. We might as well just make it a solid dark gray background. If you keep the blur but turn down the intensity and degree of darkening, you regress its ability to generate contrast against arbitrary backgrounds, and wind up with the worst of all worlds: poor contrast, and a wallpaper that still isn't visible.

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[Root]

rooty added a comment.


so i take it you're open to the idea of an unobtrusive type of blur?
i get that you want to preserve the wallpaper, but sometimes it really does get in the way (snow, mountains, clouds, etc.)

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


I don't see the point of an "unobtrusive blur." As I said, if we make the blur less extreme (less blurry, less/no darkening), then we return to having contrast problems with light or visually busy backgrounds. We add that problem back without solving the one here (the wallpaper is obscured).

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[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


BTW the macOS 10.13 lock/login screen "mild blur" works because it's showing you a blurred version of whatever your actual desktop wallpaper is, so there's continuity between the lock/login screens and the desktop experience. There's never a time when you //only// see a blurry version of something and never the real version.

That's not a feature we have; the wallpapers of the lock screen, login screen, and desktops are all independent. Whether or not this is desirable is an entirely different issue, but operating with the limitation of not having that, there is no point to a "mild blur" on the login screen because it's not a hint of anything else; it's just a blurry image.

REPOSITORY
R120 Plasma Workspace

REVISION DETAIL
https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031

To: ngraham, #vdg, #plasma, rizzitello, davidedmundson
Cc: raddison, romangg, davidedmundson, rizzitello, abetts, pstefan, broulik, rikmills, filipf, rooty, plasma-devel, ragreen, Pitel, ZrenBot, lesliezhai, ali-mohamed, jensreuterberg, sebas, apol, mart

[Root]

rooty added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
That's not a feature we have; the wallpapers of the lock screen, login screen, and desktops are all independent. Whether or not this is desirable is an entirely different issue, but operating with the limitation of not having that, there is no point to a "mild blur" on the login screen because it's not a hint of anything else; it's just a blurry image.

I actually toyed with this idea by introducing ImageSplash (instead of the KDE splash screen) and making the transition from login screen to desktop seem seamless (no interruption between login and desktop). Also, if you'd pick a different user, the login screen would just fade out and switch to that user's wallpaper (again, very tastefully). Unfortunately Kwin (I think it was Kwin) likes to flicker on my computer (but not always...) right before the panel pops up, so... it wasn't so much seamless as //almost seamless//.

REPOSITORY
R120 Plasma Workspace

REVISION DETAIL
https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031

To: ngraham, #vdg, #plasma, rizzitello, davidedmundson
Cc: raddison, romangg, davidedmundson, rizzitello, abetts, pstefan, broulik, rikmills, filipf, rooty, plasma-devel, ragreen, Pitel, ZrenBot, lesliezhai, ali-mohamed, jensreuterberg, sebas, apol, mart

[Richard Addison]

raddison added a comment.

Post by Nathaniel Graham
This patch adjusts the Breeze SDDM theme to remove the semi-permanently-blurred background, which has not been especially popular.

Please produce methodological evidence of its unpopularity.

REPOSITORY
R120 Plasma Workspace

REVISION DETAIL
https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031

To: ngraham, #vdg, #plasma, rizzitello, davidedmundson
Cc: raddison, romangg, davidedmundson, rizzitello, abetts, pstefan, broulik, rikmills, filipf, rooty, plasma-devel, ragreen, Pitel, ZrenBot, lesliezhai, ali-mohamed, jensreuterberg, sebas, apol, mart

[Alex Debus]

alexde added a comment.


I would like to introduce another suggestion, which has not yet came up: If you don't want to blur everything, how about to only blur an rectangle underneath the login controls. That means a combination of early Plasma 5

Post by Nathaniel Graham
The early Plasma 5 login screen put a dark translucent rectangle underneath the foreground elements, which worked just fine

and the current one + the enhanced contrast:

F6457437: Screenshot_20181129_233135.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6457437>
I am sorry that this a pretty bad mockup, but Gimp works completely counterintuitive to me. Otherwise it'd look better and there were round corners. :)

REPOSITORY
R120 Plasma Workspace

REVISION DETAIL
https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031

To: ngraham, #vdg, #plasma, rizzitello, davidedmundson
Cc: alexde, raddison, romangg, davidedmundson, rizzitello, abetts, pstefan, broulik, rikmills, filipf, rooty, plasma-devel, ragreen, Pitel, ZrenBot, lesliezhai, ali-mohamed, jensreuterberg, sebas, apol, mart

[Filip Fila]

filipf added a comment.


@ngraham I know this is going back to the dependent revision, but what do you think about maybe tightening the shadows around the clock?

Currently the shadows can look a bit blobby, and because the radius is so wide, the interior textual elements get filled up with black (see number "8")

F6461540: shadowOLD.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6461540>

If we do something like h.offset: -1, v.offset: -1, radius: 6, samples: 14, spread: 0.3) we get:

F6461550: shadowNEW.png <https://phabricator.kde.org/F6461550>

I think in most cases it doesn't present a legibility downgrade, but not sure about the nastiest outlier wallpapers.

REPOSITORY
R120 Plasma Workspace

REVISION DETAIL
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To: ngraham, #vdg, #plasma, rizzitello, davidedmundson
Cc: alexde, raddison, romangg, davidedmundson, rizzitello, abetts, pstefan, broulik, rikmills, filipf, rooty, plasma-devel, ragreen, Pitel, ZrenBot, lesliezhai, ali-mohamed, jensreuterberg, sebas, apol, mart

[Richard Addison]

raddison added a comment.


I think I'll have to use Gimp. When is the deadline? :)

REPOSITORY
R120 Plasma Workspace

REVISION DETAIL
https://phabricator.kde.org/D16031

To: ngraham, #vdg, #plasma, rizzitello, davidedmundson
Cc: alexde, raddison, romangg, davidedmundson, rizzitello, abetts, pstefan, broulik, rikmills, filipf, rooty, plasma-devel, ragreen, Pitel, ZrenBot, lesliezhai, ali-mohamed, jensreuterberg, sebas, apol, mart